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	<title>Comments on: Aside Revisited</title>
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	<description>helping you implement HTML5 today</description>
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		<title>By: whatdoesitwant</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2253</link>
		<dc:creator>whatdoesitwant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2253</guid>
		<description>Going through the post september spec again I see that my view has been dumped in favour of what is described  in the article. Although I will work to comply with standard procedures, I still think that the sibling approach is better. To me this particular part of the spec change feels as if Palin has won from Obama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going through the post september spec again I see that my view has been dumped in favour of what is described  in the article. Although I will work to comply with standard procedures, I still think that the sibling approach is better. To me this particular part of the spec change feels as if Palin has won from Obama.</p>
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		<title>By: whatdoesitwant</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2251</link>
		<dc:creator>whatdoesitwant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2251</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;20 am&quot;&gt;An easy way to think about this is  is related content that could be cut, eg by a mobile browser.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

@Oli That&#039;s the best description of aside that i&#039;ve heard sofar. Cheers. 

The article suggests something else:
&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/&quot;&gt;With the new definition of aside, it’s crucial to remain aware of its context. When used within an article element, the contents should be specifically related to that article (e.g., a glossary). When used outside of an article element, the contents should be related to the site (e.g., a blogroll, groups of additional navigation, and even advertising if that content is related to the page).&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

I disagree with this somewhat limiting idea of aside&#039;s application as a best practice. I argue that the unique behaviour of aside within html is that it allows a semantic relation to a sibling element, in the way that header tags and paragraph tags can have a semantic relation. &lt;em&gt;Aside&lt;/em&gt; should therefore always be approached as &lt;em&gt;sibling to&lt;/em&gt; (implying a parent) instead of as &lt;em&gt;child of&lt;/em&gt;.

I understand the reflex to opt for nesting to explain the relation. It&#039;s what I&#039;ve become used to after years of xslt and xhtml hacking. But the suggested &lt;em&gt;child of&lt;/em&gt; approach is a limited view that seems to be rooted in prior practices only. I&#039;d gladly trade that approach for improved semantics. We use sibling definitions in css and jquery. I don&#039;t see why the practice should not be extended to html5 as intended. 

A sibling definition implies a parent.
When an aside is presented as a sibling to an article, it implies a section or a body as a container of both elements.
When an aside has an article as a container, it implies sibling content.
This sibling content can be all other content within the article container. The difference between this presentation of aside and the one as a sibling to the article is extremely subtle.
This sibling content can be presented as a bunch of paragraphs headed by a header tag. To make this relation more explicit, the aside, the bunch of paragraphs and the header could be thrown into a section. But I think that most times semantics of the relation can be deduced from content and positioning, making clear that the aside is related to that bunch of content and not to the entire article. (Loving the subtlety.)

I conclude that the nested approach is perfectly viable but that it does not exclude the definition of an aside as a sibling to the article (joined together in a section or body) and still being in relation. I would rather suggest that aside as a sibling is the preferable approach.

In my opinion the difference between an outside and inside (nested) aside should not be the indicator of what the aside relates to. That aproach limits layout freedom. Instead I encourage everyone to always think of aside as a &lt;em&gt;sibling&lt;/em&gt; definition and view the relation semantically.
Practically, can you imagine the extra css hassle involved to visually present the nested aside apart from the article? 

Illustrations:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832479/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832529/

Now with regard to the sidebar nonsense: throw all that stuff in a seperate section and see the sibling relations within that section. If you do not use sections for that but need an aside to hold your sidebar, put the article and its aside in a section instead. Develop your own house style (and templates) and stick to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="20 am"><p>An easy way to think about this is  is related content that could be cut, eg by a mobile browser.</p></blockquote>
<p>@Oli That&#8217;s the best description of aside that i&#8217;ve heard sofar. Cheers. </p>
<p>The article suggests something else:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/"><p>With the new definition of aside, it’s crucial to remain aware of its context. When used within an article element, the contents should be specifically related to that article (e.g., a glossary). When used outside of an article element, the contents should be related to the site (e.g., a blogroll, groups of additional navigation, and even advertising if that content is related to the page).</p></blockquote>
<p>I disagree with this somewhat limiting idea of aside&#8217;s application as a best practice. I argue that the unique behaviour of aside within html is that it allows a semantic relation to a sibling element, in the way that header tags and paragraph tags can have a semantic relation. <em>Aside</em> should therefore always be approached as <em>sibling to</em> (implying a parent) instead of as <em>child of</em>.</p>
<p>I understand the reflex to opt for nesting to explain the relation. It&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve become used to after years of xslt and xhtml hacking. But the suggested <em>child of</em> approach is a limited view that seems to be rooted in prior practices only. I&#8217;d gladly trade that approach for improved semantics. We use sibling definitions in css and jquery. I don&#8217;t see why the practice should not be extended to html5 as intended. </p>
<p>A sibling definition implies a parent.<br />
When an aside is presented as a sibling to an article, it implies a section or a body as a container of both elements.<br />
When an aside has an article as a container, it implies sibling content.<br />
This sibling content can be all other content within the article container. The difference between this presentation of aside and the one as a sibling to the article is extremely subtle.<br />
This sibling content can be presented as a bunch of paragraphs headed by a header tag. To make this relation more explicit, the aside, the bunch of paragraphs and the header could be thrown into a section. But I think that most times semantics of the relation can be deduced from content and positioning, making clear that the aside is related to that bunch of content and not to the entire article. (Loving the subtlety.)</p>
<p>I conclude that the nested approach is perfectly viable but that it does not exclude the definition of an aside as a sibling to the article (joined together in a section or body) and still being in relation. I would rather suggest that aside as a sibling is the preferable approach.</p>
<p>In my opinion the difference between an outside and inside (nested) aside should not be the indicator of what the aside relates to. That aproach limits layout freedom. Instead I encourage everyone to always think of aside as a <em>sibling</em> definition and view the relation semantically.<br />
Practically, can you imagine the extra css hassle involved to visually present the nested aside apart from the article? </p>
<p>Illustrations:<br />
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832479/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832479/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832529/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatdoesitwant/4345832529/</a></p>
<p>Now with regard to the sidebar nonsense: throw all that stuff in a seperate section and see the sibling relations within that section. If you do not use sections for that but need an aside to hold your sidebar, put the article and its aside in a section instead. Develop your own house style (and templates) and stick to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alohci</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2101</link>
		<dc:creator>Alohci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2101</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll try that again:

&lt;blockquote&gt;An interesting read is Lachlan Hunt’s The History of &lt;aside&gt; for sidebars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed. I note that towards the end he says:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...it&#039;s clear that the use case of a pullout-type aside is conceptually 
different from that of a page sidebar, and for that reason, I think it 
might be worth reintroducing the &lt;sidebar&gt; element as a distinct 
sectioning element, and limiting the uses of &lt;aside&gt; to things like 
pullouts, footnotes and other non-sidebar uses.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It’s quite rare for me to agree with Lachlan on a matter of opinion. In this case he is spot on. It would have spared so much confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try that again:</p>
<blockquote><p>An interesting read is Lachlan Hunt’s The History of &lt;aside&gt; for sidebars.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed. I note that towards the end he says:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;it&#8217;s clear that the use case of a pullout-type aside is conceptually<br />
different from that of a page sidebar, and for that reason, I think it<br />
might be worth reintroducing the &lt;sidebar&gt; element as a distinct<br />
sectioning element, and limiting the uses of &lt;aside&gt; to things like<br />
pullouts, footnotes and other non-sidebar uses.</p></blockquote>
<p>It’s quite rare for me to agree with Lachlan on a matter of opinion. In this case he is spot on. It would have spared so much confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Alohci</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2100</link>
		<dc:creator>Alohci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2100</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;An interesting read is Lachlan Hunt’s The History of  for sidebars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed. I note that towards the end he says:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...it&#039;s clear that the use case of a pullout-type aside is conceptually 
different from that of a page sidebar, and for that reason, I think it 
might be worth reintroducing the  element as a distinct 
sectioning element, and limiting the uses of  to things like 
pullouts, footnotes and other non-sidebar uses.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s quite rare for me to agree with Lachlan on a matter of opinion. In this case he is spot on. It would have spared so much confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>An interesting read is Lachlan Hunt’s The History of  for sidebars.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed. I note that towards the end he says:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;it&#8217;s clear that the use case of a pullout-type aside is conceptually<br />
different from that of a page sidebar, and for that reason, I think it<br />
might be worth reintroducing the  element as a distinct<br />
sectioning element, and limiting the uses of  to things like<br />
pullouts, footnotes and other non-sidebar uses.
</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s quite rare for me to agree with Lachlan on a matter of opinion. In this case he is spot on. It would have spared so much confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2098</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2098</guid>
		<description>Corey. You can have navs inside a nav, I believe (I just looked at the spec as I never thought of doing that before). But most sidebars have things that aren&#039;t nav *and* nav interspersed. On  my personal blog, for example, I have various nav (archives, categories) plus recent comments (arguably, nav) and (definitely *not* nav) a random photo plus colophon (&quot;powered by WordPress&quot;).

So for this example, an over-arching nav  wouldn&#039;t be appropriate. An over-arching div would be (as that&#039;s what we use in HTML4). But the spec defines aside as also being appropriate here.

An interesting read is &lt;a href=&quot;http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0257.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lachlan Hunt&#039;s &lt;cite&gt;The History of &lt;aside&gt; for sidebars&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Corey. You can have navs inside a nav, I believe (I just looked at the spec as I never thought of doing that before). But most sidebars have things that aren&#8217;t nav *and* nav interspersed. On  my personal blog, for example, I have various nav (archives, categories) plus recent comments (arguably, nav) and (definitely *not* nav) a random photo plus colophon (&#8220;powered by WordPress&#8221;).</p>
<p>So for this example, an over-arching nav  wouldn&#8217;t be appropriate. An over-arching div would be (as that&#8217;s what we use in HTML4). But the spec defines aside as also being appropriate here.</p>
<p>An interesting read is <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0257.html" rel="nofollow">Lachlan Hunt&#8217;s <cite>The History of &lt;aside&gt; for sidebars</cite></a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey Mwamba</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2096</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey Mwamba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 10:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2096</guid>
		<description>The thing is that none of the menus at the side of this site is really an aside. They&#039;re all navs, and it doesn&#039;t matter whether they relate to the main content of the page. So as Oli says, you could just position the nav and semantically stick them all in a generic div [or a overarching nav?]. Is that not right? Or will the browser treat the aside differently to a nav, making it more appropriate? Basically, is everybody agreeing with the semantics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is that none of the menus at the side of this site is really an aside. They&#8217;re all navs, and it doesn&#8217;t matter whether they relate to the main content of the page. So as Oli says, you could just position the nav and semantically stick them all in a generic div [or a overarching nav?]. Is that not right? Or will the browser treat the aside differently to a nav, making it more appropriate? Basically, is everybody agreeing with the semantics?</p>
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		<title>By: Oli</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2095</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 08:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2095</guid>
		<description>If you only have a nav element in your page’s sidebar then you don’t need aside as a wrapper—just position the nav. However normally sidebars have a bunch of different content, and in this case putting all of it in an aside makes sense. You can also use aside for footnotes, sidenotes and whatever else you want through the glory of class and id ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you only have a nav element in your page’s sidebar then you don’t need aside as a wrapper—just position the nav. However normally sidebars have a bunch of different content, and in this case putting all of it in an aside makes sense. You can also use aside for footnotes, sidenotes and whatever else you want through the glory of class and id <img src='http://html5doctor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2090</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2090</guid>
		<description>Thing is, corey, most sidebard are  a bunch of different navs - eg, this site has &quot;recent articles&quot;, contributing authors, categories, each of which is its own nav, so aside acts as a container for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thing is, corey, most sidebard are  a bunch of different navs &#8211; eg, this site has &#8220;recent articles&#8221;, contributing authors, categories, each of which is its own nav, so aside acts as a container for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey Mwamba</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2085</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey Mwamba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 07:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2085</guid>
		<description>I think the issue has always been in
1. the wording of the draft; and
2. what people actually understand by &quot;sidebar &lt;em&gt;in typography&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

If the draft had used the word &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalia&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;marginalia&lt;/a&gt;, then I think the definition of &lt;code&gt;aside&lt;code&gt; would have been clearer. &quot;Sidebar&quot; to most people designing for and using the web doesn&#039;t mean &quot;marginalia&quot; - it means a bar at the side of page where you put a menu. But that&#039;s semantics for you.

Would it not be more appropriate to recommend that if people want a sidebar, they use a &lt;code&gt;nav&lt;/code&gt; element with appropriate CSS to shift it to the side? Then we could use asides as footnotes and annotations [although that may be covered by &lt;code&gt;comment&lt;/code&gt;?????]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the issue has always been in<br />
1. the wording of the draft; and<br />
2. what people actually understand by &#8220;sidebar <em>in typography</em>&#8220;</p>
<p>If the draft had used the word <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalia" rel="nofollow">marginalia</a>, then I think the definition of <code>aside</code><code> would have been clearer. "Sidebar" to most people designing for and using the web doesn't mean "marginalia" - it means a bar at the side of page where you put a menu. But that's semantics for you.</code></p>
<p>Would it not be more appropriate to recommend that if people want a sidebar, they use a <code>nav</code> element with appropriate CSS to shift it to the side? Then we could use asides as footnotes and annotations [although that may be covered by <code>comment</code>?????]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Clark</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2005</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1015#comment-2005</guid>
		<description>Seth, there isn&#039;t a &lt;code&gt;sidebar&lt;/code&gt; element, do you mean &lt;code&gt;aside&lt;/code&gt;? You can always a &lt;code&gt;section&lt;/code&gt; element within an &lt;code&gt;aside&lt;/code&gt; much like we do on this site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, there isn&#8217;t a <code>sidebar</code> element, do you mean <code>aside</code>? You can always a <code>section</code> element within an <code>aside</code> much like we do on this site.</p>
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