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	<title>Comments on: September HTML5 spec changes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/</link>
	<description>helping you implement HTML5 today</description>
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		<title>By: Robson Sobral</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-2131</link>
		<dc:creator>Robson Sobral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-2131</guid>
		<description>Probably, anybody will see this comment. This conversation is old, but... My idea came last night.

Why don&#039;t forget the &quot;dialog&quot; element and use a new attribute on &quot;p&quot; element to inform &#039;who&#039; is speaking? Using :before pseudo selector we can make a simple dialog to be transformed into a script, with the name of the character above the phrases.

Please, forgive my bad English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably, anybody will see this comment. This conversation is old, but&#8230; My idea came last night.</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t forget the &#8220;dialog&#8221; element and use a new attribute on &#8220;p&#8221; element to inform &#8216;who&#8217; is speaking? Using :before pseudo selector we can make a simple dialog to be transformed into a script, with the name of the character above the phrases.</p>
<p>Please, forgive my bad English.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: HTML5 Round-up &#124; Broken Links</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>HTML5 Round-up &#124; Broken Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>[...] Friends—their support is a positive move and their concerns have already made an impact in the September updates to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Friends—their support is a positive move and their concerns have already made an impact in the September updates to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Making a case for &#60;dialog&#62; in HTML 5 &#124; The Pink Crow</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1056</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Making a case for &#60;dialog&#62; in HTML 5 &#124; The Pink Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1056</guid>
		<description>[...] tags introduced in HTML 5, but unfortunately, just as I was about to put it up, I caught wind that the spec for the &lt;dialog&gt; tag has been nixed. Considering that a hefty portion of my article was devoted to illustrating how the new tag could [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] tags introduced in HTML 5, but unfortunately, just as I was about to put it up, I caught wind that the spec for the &lt;dialog&gt; tag has been nixed. Considering that a hefty portion of my article was devoted to illustrating how the new tag could [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian Hickson</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1048</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Hickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 08:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1048</guid>
		<description>One of Microsoft&#039;s comments was:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0041.html

We&#039;ve looked at a lot of current practices over time. One we&#039;ve seen a lot is DIV elements with class=&quot;...&quot; attributes, and for some of the most common values, we&#039;ve added new elements to handle the case (SECTION, NAV, etc). Another is really complicated JavaScript and DOM constructs for date controls; we&#039;ve added type=&quot;date&quot; to the INPUT element.

However, as much as I personally would like an element for conversations, the reality is that we haven&#039;t found authors having much trouble with dialogue and the like. They seem quite content to use the P element and don&#039;t seem to be suffering for it. This is in sharp contrast to the other cases I listed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of Microsoft&#8217;s comments was:<br />
   <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0041.html" rel="nofollow">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0041.html</a></p>
<p>We&#8217;ve looked at a lot of current practices over time. One we&#8217;ve seen a lot is DIV elements with class=&#8221;&#8230;&#8221; attributes, and for some of the most common values, we&#8217;ve added new elements to handle the case (SECTION, NAV, etc). Another is really complicated JavaScript and DOM constructs for date controls; we&#8217;ve added type=&#8221;date&#8221; to the INPUT element.</p>
<p>However, as much as I personally would like an element for conversations, the reality is that we haven&#8217;t found authors having much trouble with dialogue and the like. They seem quite content to use the P element and don&#8217;t seem to be suffering for it. This is in sharp contrast to the other cases I listed.</p>
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		<title>By: kelvinj</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1044</link>
		<dc:creator>kelvinj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1044</guid>
		<description>@Ian Hickson - hang on a second, that argument doesn&#039;t stand up. Evidence of current behaviour will show you that people are using the &quot;div&quot; element successfully for, well, loads of the stuff that has been added. So, what is Microsoft&#039;s (&amp; others) argument for keeping figure but ditching dialog?

I would genuinely like to know, not just trolling.

Cheers,

Kelvin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ian Hickson &#8211; hang on a second, that argument doesn&#8217;t stand up. Evidence of current behaviour will show you that people are using the &#8220;div&#8221; element successfully for, well, loads of the stuff that has been added. So, what is Microsoft&#8217;s (&amp; others) argument for keeping figure but ditching dialog?</p>
<p>I would genuinely like to know, not just trolling.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Kelvin</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian Hickson</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1042</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Hickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1042</guid>
		<description>I agree that it makes sense to have an element for dialogue — after all, I had added one just for that! :-)

However, while you and I agree with this, it&#039;s not clear that the evidence really supports the need for this. People are using the &quot;p&quot; element for conversations pretty successfully, and there&#039;s a lot of pushback (e.g. from Microsoft, IIRC) about implementing elements for this purpose.

That doesn&#039;t mean we&#039;ll never have one. But maybe it&#039;s worth just waiting for the next version before adding it. HTML5 adds a lot of new stuff. Let&#039;s see how it goes before adding more. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it makes sense to have an element for dialogue — after all, I had added one just for that! <img src='http://html5doctor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>However, while you and I agree with this, it&#8217;s not clear that the evidence really supports the need for this. People are using the &#8220;p&#8221; element for conversations pretty successfully, and there&#8217;s a lot of pushback (e.g. from Microsoft, IIRC) about implementing elements for this purpose.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean we&#8217;ll never have one. But maybe it&#8217;s worth just waiting for the next version before adding it. HTML5 adds a lot of new stuff. Let&#8217;s see how it goes before adding more. <img src='http://html5doctor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alohci</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1041</link>
		<dc:creator>Alohci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1041</guid>
		<description>@Ian Hickson: That list does show a fair variation - six different methods, none of which, curiously, are the HTML4 recommended &quot;dl&quot;. To me this shows author confusion, nobody knows what the best way of doing this is.

I certainly never thought of using &quot;dl&quot; for dialogues - it&#039;s always meant a definition list to me, and on the basis of Jonas&#039;s sample,  everyone else has a similar view.

It would be great if HTML 5 could do better than what has gone before. There&#039;s no question that dialogues are an extremely common idiom on Web 2.0 and therefore some focused markup for it would not be out of place.

I like the idea that AT could use different voices for different speakers, though I don&#039;t know whether that would ever happen.

It does seem that markup for dialogue is being designed backwards though, trying to fit in existing tags first rather than working out exactly what idealised (i.e. without browser implementation limitations) markup would look like - for example, how should stage directions be included, multiple voices speaking simultaneously, etc - and only when we&#039;ve got a full set of use cases, then try and fit suitable tags to meet those use cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ian Hickson: That list does show a fair variation &#8211; six different methods, none of which, curiously, are the HTML4 recommended &#8220;dl&#8221;. To me this shows author confusion, nobody knows what the best way of doing this is.</p>
<p>I certainly never thought of using &#8220;dl&#8221; for dialogues &#8211; it&#8217;s always meant a definition list to me, and on the basis of Jonas&#8217;s sample,  everyone else has a similar view.</p>
<p>It would be great if HTML 5 could do better than what has gone before. There&#8217;s no question that dialogues are an extremely common idiom on Web 2.0 and therefore some focused markup for it would not be out of place.</p>
<p>I like the idea that AT could use different voices for different speakers, though I don&#8217;t know whether that would ever happen.</p>
<p>It does seem that markup for dialogue is being designed backwards though, trying to fit in existing tags first rather than working out exactly what idealised (i.e. without browser implementation limitations) markup would look like &#8211; for example, how should stage directions be included, multiple voices speaking simultaneously, etc &#8211; and only when we&#8217;ve got a full set of use cases, then try and fit suitable tags to meet those use cases.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian Hickson</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1040</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Hickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1040</guid>
		<description>&quot;p&quot; elements seem to be the cowpath most people use:
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-September/022576.html

Why would it not suffice?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;p&#8221; elements seem to be the cowpath most people use:<br />
<a href="http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-September/022576.html" rel="nofollow">http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-September/022576.html</a></p>
<p>Why would it not suffice?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rachel Nabors</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1039</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Nabors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1039</guid>
		<description>Well darn, my tags were removed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well darn, my tags were removed.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rachel Nabors</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/september-html5-spec-changes/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Nabors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=911#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>@Ian Hickson: That not a very pretty way to markup dialog. Seriously, there is a need for . Interviews, plays, comics, long conversational quotes, instant messager transcripts... Paragraph tags will not suffice! 

Something like this would be grand:


June 10th 2009 11:30 am
Rachel
I want dialog tags, yeah!
Ian Hickson
Alas, you just missed them.


A girl can dream... too bad!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ian Hickson: That not a very pretty way to markup dialog. Seriously, there is a need for . Interviews, plays, comics, long conversational quotes, instant messager transcripts&#8230; Paragraph tags will not suffice! </p>
<p>Something like this would be grand:</p>
<p>June 10th 2009 11:30 am<br />
Rachel<br />
I want dialog tags, yeah!<br />
Ian Hickson<br />
Alas, you just missed them.</p>
<p>A girl can dream&#8230; too bad!</p>
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