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	<title>Comments on: The small &amp; hr elements</title>
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	<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/</link>
	<description>helping you implement HTML5 today</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 21:31:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Angelo</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-25118</link>
		<dc:creator>Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-25118</guid>
		<description>Will do, thanks for your help :) Certainly something I need to take a deeper look at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will do, thanks for your help :) Certainly something I need to take a deeper look at.</p>
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		<title>By: Oli Studholme</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-25116</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli Studholme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 07:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-25116</guid>
		<description>@Angelo — &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt; seems pretty styleable in modern browsers to me — here are &lt;a href=&quot;http://dabblet.com/gist/2203555&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;some examples of styling &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.

“XHTML is valid code” — this doesn’t make sense. XHTML is as (in-)valid as HTML5. You &lt;em&gt;can’t&lt;/em&gt; have a &lt;code&gt;&lt;footer&gt;&lt;/code&gt; in a &lt;code&gt;&lt;header&gt;&lt;/code&gt; or vice versa, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-footer-element&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the spec explicitly forbids this&lt;/a&gt;. You &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; use “XHTML style” closing tags if you want, as I wrote in point 9 of &lt;a href=&quot;http://oli.jp/2009/html5-faq/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;12 common problems with HTML5&lt;/a&gt; back in 2009. Actually please read that entire article, you might find it illuminating :) After that check out the &lt;a href=&quot;http://html5doctor.com/article-archive/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;HTML5 Doctor article archive&lt;/a&gt; ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Angelo — <code>&lt;hr></code> seems pretty styleable in modern browsers to me — here are <a href="http://dabblet.com/gist/2203555" rel="nofollow">some examples of styling <code>&lt;hr></code></a>.</p>
<p>“XHTML is valid code” — this doesn’t make sense. XHTML is as (in-)valid as HTML5. You <em>can’t</em> have a <code>&lt;footer></code> in a <code>&lt;header></code> or vice versa, <a href="http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-footer-element" rel="nofollow">the spec explicitly forbids this</a>. You <em>can</em> use “XHTML style” closing tags if you want, as I wrote in point 9 of <a href="http://oli.jp/2009/html5-faq/" rel="nofollow">12 common problems with HTML5</a> back in 2009. Actually please read that entire article, you might find it illuminating :) After that check out the <a href="http://html5doctor.com/article-archive/" rel="nofollow">HTML5 Doctor article archive</a> ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Angelo</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-25115</link>
		<dc:creator>Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 06:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-25115</guid>
		<description>@Dr. Oli 

The HR property limits my control. The HR divide is very think and when I try to remove a border to make the divide thinner it won&#039;t let me. Just to illustrate on your website you have nice thin borders, where are not HR tags, you simply but a border-top. 

The only issue I have is that a HR tag would have good appropriate for my situation but considering is placed a double-lined space I think I would rather pass. If my HR tag was invisible it would have been ideal, but for styling I would not recommend it.

I look at things from a presentational point of view, I agree semantically it&#039;s better, but presentationally it&#039;s worse.

&lt;blockquote&gt;What XHTML coding practices do you feel are better?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

XHTML is valid code. HTML5 uses the tags such as the  which act the same way as DIV&#039;s. In other words you can have a footer in the header and vice versa. The tags aren&#039;t closed any more, which is confusing since such a deal was made back in university on closing tags.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dr. Oli </p>
<p>The HR property limits my control. The HR divide is very think and when I try to remove a border to make the divide thinner it won&#8217;t let me. Just to illustrate on your website you have nice thin borders, where are not HR tags, you simply but a border-top. </p>
<p>The only issue I have is that a HR tag would have good appropriate for my situation but considering is placed a double-lined space I think I would rather pass. If my HR tag was invisible it would have been ideal, but for styling I would not recommend it.</p>
<p>I look at things from a presentational point of view, I agree semantically it&#8217;s better, but presentationally it&#8217;s worse.</p>
<blockquote><p>What XHTML coding practices do you feel are better?</p></blockquote>
<p>XHTML is valid code. HTML5 uses the tags such as the  which act the same way as DIV&#8217;s. In other words you can have a footer in the header and vice versa. The tags aren&#8217;t closed any more, which is confusing since such a deal was made back in university on closing tags.</p>
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		<title>By: Oli Studholme</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-25111</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli Studholme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-25111</guid>
		<description>@Chris H — try reading &lt;a href=&quot;http://html5doctor.com/i-b-em-strong-element/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my article on the &lt;code&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;/code&gt; elements&lt;/a&gt;, especially the notes about other more appropriate elements at the end of each section. Also, no element is ever “got rid of”, as browsers have to support every one for legacy content.

@Angelo — &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt; is for a thematic break, &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; for adding a border, and &lt;code&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;br&quot;&gt;&lt;/code&gt; is semantically completely different. XHTML and HTML5 are basically equivalent to a browser, assuming you’re sending XHTML as &lt;code&gt;text/html&lt;/code&gt;. What XHTML coding practices do you feel are better?
PS add the elements you forgot to escape if you reply, and I’ll edit your original comment</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris H — try reading <a href="http://html5doctor.com/i-b-em-strong-element/" rel="nofollow">my article on the <code>&lt;i></code> and <code>&lt;b></code> elements</a>, especially the notes about other more appropriate elements at the end of each section. Also, no element is ever “got rid of”, as browsers have to support every one for legacy content.</p>
<p>@Angelo — <code>&lt;hr></code> is for a thematic break, <em>not</em> for adding a border, and <code>&lt;div class="br"></code> is semantically completely different. XHTML and HTML5 are basically equivalent to a browser, assuming you’re sending XHTML as <code>text/html</code>. What XHTML coding practices do you feel are better?<br />
PS add the elements you forgot to escape if you reply, and I’ll edit your original comment</p>
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		<title>By: Angelo</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-25107</link>
		<dc:creator>Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-25107</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like the HR tag.

What I dislike about them is that they does not have many styling &#039;real&#039; attributes. 

The automatically be default add a border in what it feels is a box. Essentially it treats is like a box with no heights. When you try to have better control over it&#039;s border it won&#039;t let you. I now use a div with the class of BR, which does the job. 

As for HTML5, I can&#039;t understand what&#039;s going on there. XHTML for better coding practices. HTML5 has somehow reverted back to prehistoric tags, that being the &lt;code&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. Why not introduce the &lt;code&gt;&lt;font&gt;&lt;/code&gt; tag whilst you&#039;re at it! 

Whilst everybody has jumped on the bandwagon of HTML5 securing a future for it&#039;s self. I am not too convinced it deserves such a lime light. XHTML was hardly given such exposure but it&#039;s use was pretty rock solid! I&#039;ve used xHTML in all my sites, now I am not too convince I should jump into HTML5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t like the HR tag.</p>
<p>What I dislike about them is that they does not have many styling &#8216;real&#8217; attributes. </p>
<p>The automatically be default add a border in what it feels is a box. Essentially it treats is like a box with no heights. When you try to have better control over it&#8217;s border it won&#8217;t let you. I now use a div with the class of BR, which does the job. </p>
<p>As for HTML5, I can&#8217;t understand what&#8217;s going on there. XHTML for better coding practices. HTML5 has somehow reverted back to prehistoric tags, that being the <code>&lt;i></code>, <code>&lt;b></code>. Why not introduce the <code>&lt;font></code> tag whilst you&#8217;re at it! </p>
<p>Whilst everybody has jumped on the bandwagon of HTML5 securing a future for it&#8217;s self. I am not too convinced it deserves such a lime light. XHTML was hardly given such exposure but it&#8217;s use was pretty rock solid! I&#8217;ve used xHTML in all my sites, now I am not too convince I should jump into HTML5.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-21346</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-21346</guid>
		<description>Personally, I &lt;em&gt;&lt;em&gt;hate&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/em&gt; using &lt;code&gt;i&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt;, and I &lt;em&gt;hate&lt;/em&gt; it when I see them used incorrectly in someone else&#039;s source. The HTML5 spec isn&#039;t very unambiguous, so I&#039;m always debating with myself which to use. One week I think &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; is appropriate, then I think back on it and decide &lt;code&gt;i&lt;/code&gt; is better. They should just get rid of them completely and use &lt;code&gt;span&lt;/code&gt;s for stylistic offset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I <em></em><em>hate</em> using <code>i</code> and <code>b</code>, and I <em>hate</em> it when I see them used incorrectly in someone else&#8217;s source. The HTML5 spec isn&#8217;t very unambiguous, so I&#8217;m always debating with myself which to use. One week I think <code>b</code> is appropriate, then I think back on it and decide <code>i</code> is better. They should just get rid of them completely and use <code>span</code>s for stylistic offset.</p>
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		<title>By: Oli Studholme</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-18411</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli Studholme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-18411</guid>
		<description>@Mark Boughter — completely agree, but this is what history has given us to work with :) Hopefully the new definition (and this article) will make deciding when to use &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt; easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark Boughter — completely agree, but this is what history has given us to work with :) Hopefully the new definition (and this article) will make deciding when to use <code>&lt;hr></code> easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Boughter</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-18401</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Boughter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-18401</guid>
		<description>I see what you mean.  I suppose my gripe should be with the name of the original tag.  Perhaps it should have been called, more generically, &quot;separator&quot; instead of &quot;hr&quot; in the first place.  

It seems I&#039;ve always incorrectly considered its semantic meaning to be &quot;draw a line here&quot; causing me to avoid its use altogether due to what I considered its presentational nature.  Questions that always came to mind were &quot;is a flourish to be considered a horizontal rule?&quot; and &quot;shouldn&#039;t I just use a border-bottom instead?&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you mean.  I suppose my gripe should be with the name of the original tag.  Perhaps it should have been called, more generically, &#8220;separator&#8221; instead of &#8220;hr&#8221; in the first place.  </p>
<p>It seems I&#8217;ve always incorrectly considered its semantic meaning to be &#8220;draw a line here&#8221; causing me to avoid its use altogether due to what I considered its presentational nature.  Questions that always came to mind were &#8220;is a flourish to be considered a horizontal rule?&#8221; and &#8220;shouldn&#8217;t I just use a border-bottom instead?&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Oli Studholme</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-18388</link>
		<dc:creator>Oli Studholme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 04:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-18388</guid>
		<description>@Mark Boughter — presentational-only elements have been dropped from HTML5 (well, arguably :) If &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt; didn’t have a semantic meaning it would have been made obsolete. As Alohci points out this is more a (very minor) realigning than a repurposing. Adding new elements is not to be done lightly either — it increases complexity, and requires updates to tools and browsers. Any new element will literally take years to achieve wide native support.

Have you ever used &lt;code&gt;&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/code&gt; when you &lt;em&gt;weren’t&lt;/em&gt; separating this and that? And how should a screen reader convey a “horizontal rule”?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark Boughter — presentational-only elements have been dropped from HTML5 (well, arguably :) If <code>&lt;hr></code> didn’t have a semantic meaning it would have been made obsolete. As Alohci points out this is more a (very minor) realigning than a repurposing. Adding new elements is not to be done lightly either — it increases complexity, and requires updates to tools and browsers. Any new element will literally take years to achieve wide native support.</p>
<p>Have you ever used <code>&lt;hr></code> when you <em>weren’t</em> separating this and that? And how should a screen reader convey a “horizontal rule”?</p>
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		<title>By: Alohci</title>
		<link>http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/#comment-18384</link>
		<dc:creator>Alohci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://html5doctor.com/?p=1506#comment-18384</guid>
		<description>@Mark 

&lt;blockquote&gt;The &lt;HR&gt; element is a divider between sections of text; &lt;/blockquote&gt;
 - HTML 2.0 Specification

&lt;blockquote&gt;Horizontal rules may be used to indicate a change in topic.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
 - HTML 3.2 Specification

&lt;blockquote&gt;The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break&lt;/blockquote&gt;
 - HTML 5.0 Draft Specification

I&#039;d say that was pretty consistent really, and not a re-purposing at all. It was only HTML 4 that was out of step, in defining it (badly) only in presentational terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark </p>
<blockquote><p>The &lt;HR> element is a divider between sections of text; </p></blockquote>
<p> &#8211; HTML 2.0 Specification</p>
<blockquote><p>Horizontal rules may be used to indicate a change in topic.</p></blockquote>
<p> &#8211; HTML 3.2 Specification</p>
<blockquote><p>The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break</p></blockquote>
<p> &#8211; HTML 5.0 Draft Specification</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say that was pretty consistent really, and not a re-purposing at all. It was only HTML 4 that was out of step, in defining it (badly) only in presentational terms.</p>
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